CSS

[rlhanson]

I read in one of the posts about JohnMarc using CSS programming vs. the table layout...can't find it now though.

Anyway, curious is you are programming with this style, if you've had any issues, why you feel it's better (or not), and any recommendations on the subject.

Thanks!

[charlesh]

There's a learning curve, no doubt. I used to use tables because I thought I could control spacing much better than anything else out there by adding spacer gifs and so forth. Then I started styling TDs and Tables with inline styles to "fix" certain elements. After doing that a while, the switch to CSS was much easier, so I started styling the layout tables with CSS (1/2 way there).

The best way, absolutely, is to use DIV containing elements with an attached style sheet. The bloat of the code is so much less than that of table layouts and once you realize how to use margin: and padding: you will also realize that you have much greater control over your elements than you did with tables and a whole world will open up.

By no means am I great at CSS, but I do feel that I have at this point reached a comfort level with styling from CSS.

The downside of tables is that you can get lost in the structure. Add nested tables and it makes it even harder to modify things.

The only issue is that if i'm having problems with divs, I usually try to revert to tables. Make sure you download the firefox firebug plugin to diagnose and debug your css woes with the inspector. it's invaluable.

How's business? I was in KC a couple of weeks ago meeting with a client at the Hyatt. It was a last minute trip up there from Wichita and it was 9:00 by the time we were done, so I stayed on the Plaza there in KC and had a good dinner at Houston's. I love it there.

[jmarcv]

CSS is a bear for sure. I just converted a large app and it was gruesome!

You guys might want to have a look at the yahoo YUI - a free set of libs with very good docs to make life cross browser compatible and a lot easier, especially the CSS tools (Grids, etc)

The Yahoo! User Interface Library (YUI)

This is what cPanel is using, BTW.

[rlhanson]

Then I started styling TDs and Tables with inline styles to "fix" certain elements. After doing that a while, the switch to CSS was much easier, so I started styling the layout tables with CSS (1/2 way there).

I started styling my table elements with CSS when I re-vamped my site and I REALLY like the way it controls my design...which is why I started thinking more about this.
Either JohnMarc or another programmer I know sent me a link to a site that had CSS styled webpages that you could change the entire look of the same page just by clicking on a different style. It was really cool and I've thought about it off and on since.

To be honest, DIV's and layout based on pixel location (like in layers) has always been a challenge. I just haven't gotten a grasp on it yet. I'm assuming the CSS will pose the same challenge for me. I am thinking that the CSS design will allow for some really creative designs though.

How's business? I was in KC a couple of weeks ago meeting with a client at the Hyatt.

Not as good as your apparently! No meetings at the Hyatt lately. lol

Really though, I was slammed the last few weeks, and had an opportunity last week to design the local builder's site for the Extreme Makeover:Home Edition that's here in Chapman now - Flint Hills Extreme Build - Extreme Makeover Home Edition.

It was kinda crazy (24 hour design) but it was a good donation. Still semi-jumping-through-hoops but I am so happy they've chosen a family that suffered through the tornado devastation!

When my personal life gets back to normal - next year sometime - you and your wife should stop by during travels to KC!

CSS is a bear for sure. I just converted a large app and it was gruesome!

JohnMarc - why the conversion? Is it that much better to work with or ?

I appreciate you both - thanks for the responses!

[jmarcv]

Either JohnMarc or another programmer I know sent me a link to a site that had CSS styled webpages that you could change the entire look of the same page just by clicking on a different style. It was really cool and I've thought about it off and on since.

Here it is...
css Zen Garden: The Beauty in CSS Design

JohnMarc - why the conversion? Is it that much better to work with or ?

Well, like C says, tables can get really nasty and nested in no time. I had pages where crap went off screen, couldn't find it. And, since Zoffix was giving me so much crap -G- I figured I should redo the structure. With Firebug, its a bit easier to deal with.

Other reason, many browsers will not render a page until the whole table is read in, but with DIVs, the screen gets drawn incrementally, so there isnt a big long pause getting SOMETHING on the screen.

[rlhanson]

YAY! I could not remember that site!!! Thanks!

I'll get back to this in a sec!

[rlhanson]

I was trying to remember that site because it was more graphic design oriented and knew it gave the code examples.

I knew is had an a-h-h-h feeling to it, but couldn't remember the name!

Thanks for the info - I will be looking at this and seeing what I can figure out!

[charlesh]

Here's also a great CSS reference. His books are great too. Eric Meyer is a person obsessed with css:

meyerweb.com

[Christopher]

Thanks for the leads on CSS, I too use CSS in small amounts but hope to expand on that now that I have some good reference.

[Matt]

Now if all browsers rendered it the same we would be loving life...